How to buy
How to buy an old Winny
1. If you are serious about it, take a pencil and piece of paper with you to write down information about each gun. At a gun show, there are so many guns it is easy to forget which one had which features. ASK PLENTY OF QUESTIONS ABOUT ANY GUN YOU ARE INTERESTED IN.
2. Make up your mind WHY you want an old Winchester. To shoot? To collect? For investment? To hang on the wall? For cowboy action shooting? To hunt with? To own a piece of history? Your intended use will determine what to look for and how much you should pay.
3. Look for the model number. It should be on the upper tang (the top metal strap going back into the buttstock) or on the barrel. Look for a caliber marking on the barrel. If there is no caliber marking on a Winchester 1873, it’s a 44-40. If there is no caliber marking on a Winchester 1876, it’s a 45-75.
4. Look for the serial number. It will be on the lower tang, or the bottom of the receiver. The lower the number, the older the gun. If you want a pre-WWII Winchester 1894, look for a number lower than 1,300,000. If you want a pre-1964, Model ’94, look for one lower than 2,200,000. (Design changes in 1964 make guns after that date less desirable.)
5. Determine how much, if any, of the original blue finish is left on the gun. Is the bluing turning brown? Is it gun metal silver? The more original blue, the more valuable. If in doubt, ask the owner if the gun has been re-blued. Refinished or re-blued is okay for a shooter, but it loses collector value. Is there any pitting in the metal? Any rust? Have there been extra holes drilled?
6. Check the outside of the barrel. Is it the correct length? If you don’t know, ask the dealer if it’s the original length. Is the lettering on the barrel crisp, or does it look polished, rounded? Is there pitting or rust?
7. Check the inside of the barrel . . . the bore. Ask to borrow a bore light and look inside. Here’s a rating system we use:
1 = very bad, just a hole
2 = heavy pitting, some rifling
3 = dark bore, pitting, corrosion
4 = shootable
5 = decent rifling – some corrosion
6 = good rifling, minor pitting
7 = shiny, some wear, minor pitting
8 = bright & shiny, slight wear
9 = near perfect
10 = as new, perfect
Ask the owner to rate the gun. How good a bore you need depends on your use of the gun.
8. Examine the condition of the wood. What is the finish like? Has the wood been sanded? Refinished? How does the wood fit to the metal (is the wood flush or higher than the metal?) Undersized wood reduces value. Are there big flaws in the wood, such as nails, bolts, wire wrap, holes drilled, inletted items, tacks, repairs? Look for little flaws, like chips of wood missing, and cracks in the wood. Take your time, examine it carefully.
9. Check the buttplate. Does it look correct? There are 3 different shapes to look for. A sharply curved crescent was standard on rifles. A more gradual rounded curve was standard on carbines. The straight, shotgun buttstock was custom ordered on either. Does the buttstock fit tight? Is there pitting or rust on it?
10. Look at all the screws. Are there any missing? Are the screw heads battered? Are they nice? Do they match the rest of the gun?
11. Ask the owner to let you work the action. Cock the gun. Look inside. Do the parts look original? Look for cracks, welds, signs of excessive wear. Is the action smooth, rough, sloppy? Ask him how the gun shoots. Is it easy to get ammo for it? Where? Ask the owner if you may pull the trigger. Always respect his instructions.
12. Ask the owner the date of manufacture. Most will have a book that lists the year the gun was made. If he doesn’t, write down the serial number and ask someone else to look it up for you. The older the gun, the more value it can retain.
13. Inspect the sights. Are they the original ones that came with the gun? If you don’t know, ask the owner. Do they look as worn as the rest of the gun? Are they special ordered? Are they other than factory installed? Is there something unique about the sights? Double check for extra holes drilled for sights or scope mounts.
14. Visit with the owner. Make friends. Does he seem to know his guns? Will he talk
to you? Does he give you straight answers? Will he look you in the eye? Does he have a good reputation? What do others say about him?
15. If you are buying a gun for a collection or investment, does he have a factory letter with the gun? These can be secured from the Firearms Museum, at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming, where old Winchester records are housed.
16. Look for special features on the gun. Each special feature increases the value. Look for shorter than normal, or longer than normal factory installed barrels. Short magazines; shotgun buttplates; half-octagon, half-round barrels; single or double-set triggers; original engraving; pistol grip; factory original checkered wood, take-down feature; tang sights, etc.
17. Even if the price is plainly marked, double check it with the owner. Don’t be afraid to ask him if it’s his best price or to make him an offer different than the marked price. Tell him what you are willing to pay. Remember, an expensive gun is not necessarily the best gun. And a cheap gun is not always a good buy.
18. Check around for guns just like the one you are interested in. If you’re at a gun show, look at as many guns as you can that are similar. Compare features, condition and price. Ask lots of questions. Most all gun owners love to talk about guns.
19. If you have a friend more that is more experienced than you, have him take a look at the gun. Ponder it a while if you can’t make up your mind. Have a cup of coffee and think about which you would regret more . . . buying the gun . . . or not buying it? If you like it and it fits your criteria and budget, BUY THE GUN! Enjoy it.
20. If you can’t find just what you are looking for . . . don’t buy any old gun. Wait until you find what you want. Tell a reputable dealer what you are looking for. Give him your name and phone number or email address. If he runs across something, have him contact you. Owning old lever action Winchesters is a fun hobby, and a connection with the history of this country!
Several of you have written to us asking if now is a good time to invest some funds in old Winchesters. As you can see from the photo below, we’ve not been all that successful as financial consultants.
However . . here’s our best advice.
** Old Winchesters never go down in value.
** Shop around before you buy, prices vary widely.
** Only buy original, unmessed with old Winchester (preferably pre-1899)
** Stick with proven models and popular calibers.
** View your investment as a 5 year CD. You’ll make good money in 5 years. Great money in 10 or more.
** If you like to shoot . . . go for very good condition, but not mint condition. If you just want them to sit in the safe and make money, go for highest condition. It won’t matter. One $5000 gun will be worth at least $7000 in five years. But two $2500 guns will each be worth at least $3500 in the same time. So you make the same amount on your investment.
** Enjoy your guns. (It is NO FUN sitting around watching the stock market bottom out and retirement funds slide downhill.) Old Winchesters can be an enjoyable investment.
There’s our free advice. If you want more solid advice . . . check with your regular financial consultant . . . provided his company hasn’t bellied up by now.
Gun Collecting: For Fun and Profit
Gun collecting can be a fun and profitable pursuit for any gun owner. But if you approach the craft with only a view toward investing, you're likely to have neither fun nor profit in the end. Here's how to get the most out of your firearms collection.
By Rick Sapp
Today’s old gun markets have almost everything for the gun collector.
We collect because it is fun to learn about and possess these old firearms, whether they are the Guns that Won the West or the sidearm grandpa carried at Belleau Wood.
Good collecting, the most satisfying kind of hunting and gathering or “accumulating,” becomes more than simple acquisition, more than decoration; it becomes a life-long passion that involves more than hiding artifacts in a safe. The deeper we get into antique firearms, for instance, the more questions we ask: Did Remington manufacture .38 rimfi re Vest Pocket Pistols, its “Saw-Handle Deringer,” or were these simply mis-gauged .41s?
And how many .30- and .32- caliber models were made? Are these versions quite rare or simply odd?
Collecting, as opposed to gathering, can be an intellectual pursuit as well as a way to be with other people of a similar interest. In my experience, [fi shing] lure collectors, in particular are the some of more fun loving bunch of people I’ve encountered. How much fun is it to collect in front of your video screen? On the other hand, where else can you legally have this much fun and maybe make some money on your indulgences in the long run? Bottom line: collect what you really like and wait on those boomers to show up about the time you want to buy a house in Montana, but don’t quit the hobby just because it’s hard to find a five dollar Heddon.”
– Michael Echols, originally written in 1998 and since updated for Gabby Talkington’s www.antiquelures.com. Used with permission.)
It is a challenge to dig into the unknown. There are so many peculiar and unanswered questions in every facet of firearms as to boggle the mind, and trying to decipher these puzzles keeps us on a learning curve when our human brains, by some medical and sociological accounts, have long since fossilized. Does it matter to the human race whether Remington manufactured .38 rimfire Deringers? Probably not, but it may matter to us, personally.
The mental stimulation of learning about any technology such as guns – the arguing, debating and researching – is sufficient reason, quite apart from actually owning them, to collect. It is really no different than a medieval monk laboriously transcribing an ancient parchment scroll. It is brain health. But actually owning the old guns, turning them over in one’s gloved hands, poring over them with a magnifying glass is also important.
There is a story about an old duck hunter who has taken his grandson into the marsh. The old man calls and the cold wind blows and the boy shivers. Finally, the ducks swoop in and the old man points out the mallards and the blue wing teal and shows the boy how to tell them apart from the wood ducks, the drakes from the hens, and coaches him about lead, but the old man does not shoot. As the next flight swings around the decoys, the boy does not raise his gun to shoot, either. “Why didn’t you shoot?” the old man asks and the boy says, “I just want to be like you, grandpa.” And the old man pats him on the back and says, “I’ve shot plenty of ducks in my time. Now it’s your turn. You have to shoot ‘em.”
It is the same way with antique firearms. Beyond the biofeedback, the hand-to-brain hypothesis suggests that it is the stimulation of our restless hands and fingers that encourages our brain to learn: “You have to own them.” Learning about old guns is wonderful and some might say a sufficient reason to be interested. That coin has another side, however, and that is actually making a purchase; taking home your first gun. And that thrill – and it is a thrill – is absolutely necessary to fully participate in and enjoy this antique field, whether or not it is ultimately a meaningless activity and whether our kids follow in our collecting footsteps.
Investing vs. the True Collector
According to Gabby Talkington of AntiqueLures.com, “The person who gets into collecting because he or she enjoys it is going to come out ahead, no matter what happens to the market. If they have fun studying old lures or whatever, then when a barrel of oil reaches $200 and the bottom drops out of the stock and collectible markets, they won’t be hitting their head against the wall like they would if collecting was just some investment. If they’re collecting because its fun to fi nd and have this old stuff around and the prices go up…then that’s kind of a double bonus. “There is the risk that the bottom [of the collector market] will fall out tomorrow.
The collectible decoy prices fell. Gold coins fell. Baseball cards fell. Think about it again. You didn’t sell that lure for $1,000 last week…and the very next week the market crashes and we are back to the $5 lure! Don’t laugh, it could happen. It has happened before. “In 1988-89 the prices went through the ceiling and crashed the next year as the rolling recession of the 1990- 93 period started.
With the Asian and Russian economies crashing in 1998 [and ultimately rebounding] we may see the same results sooner than later. “Collecting is a mind game. Without the perception, in your mind, that something has value then there is none.
What is the intrinsic value of a wood fi shing lure? Well, we’re back to the $5 lure.” – Michael Echols, writing for Gabby Talkington’s www.antiquelures.com With permission.) Perhaps it is the same in every collecting field. A group gets together for a beer and talk turns to “what Dad did in the war.” The next time they have a neighborhood Bar-B-Q someone brings an old Nazi battle pennant and soon, someone else brings the Luger that his father smuggled home from Germany.
Then someone buys a book such as the annual Standard Catalog of Firearms or does an Internet search for “gun collecting” and a whole new pod of collectors springs to life. The men and women in this hypothetical neighborhood group illustrate an excellent way to get started in collecting – start or become part of a group. One person’s interest feeds that of another and enthusiasm, stories, good purchases and even screw-ups become a commonly shared experience.
A quiet competitiveness is naturally awakened within the group. While joining a club or hanging out with other collectors is a great way to get started, there is really no “wrong” way to begin (unless it is to rush out and buy something impulsively).
Nevertheless, most collectors, writers and gun experts suggest that to get involved in collecting with the objective to make money buying and selling guns as investments is close to the wrong way. Becoming a “gun trader” involves an entirely different motivation and methodology, one that is strictly mercantile, commodity oriented.
While collecting values tend to be stable to gradually increasing – after all, as Mark Twain is supposed to have quipped about land, they are not making any more Model 1, First Type Smith & Wes- son .22s, for example (Or are they? Does one count a reproduction?) – those same values can be volatile and swings in the marketplace are as notorious as swings in the stock market. (Former Hoyt-USA president Joe Johnston recalls that the archery company got a terrific, although temporary boost when Sylvester Stallone used their product in his first Rambo movie in 1882.)
On the one hand, Nevada Colt collector Ed Cox warns, nothing is assured in the world of collecting. The generation of kids who grew up playing cowboys and Indians, the ones who are especially in love with cowboy action shooting and collecting antique Colt SAAs, are getting “along in years” now and whether the next generation wants these old guns is anyone’s guess. (When members of the next generation arrive at their 50s, they may collect vintage iPods!) But on the other hand Cox notes that, “If I had put my dollar in a savings account in the bank, it would never be worth $1,300. By buying the antique gun, though, it would surely go up in value. If I’d bought an antique gun when I was a kid the value would be $1,800- $2,500 now.”
Florida’s Norm Flayderman believes that gun collecting has so far been isolated from dramatic market swings because it has not attracted hordes of “investors,” people hoping literally to get rich quick, the Warren Buffets trying to corner the market on silver, for instance. What has given the antique or collectible gun market its continuing viability is that collectors know the guns and have an interest in them other than strictly their monetary value. Thus, as the economy swings, the gun market tends to remain steady to increasing – again, because the field is saturated with true collectors rather than investors who, Flayderman notes, “purchase only for the sake of financial gain with no appreciation for the arms themselves.”
The Six Rules Of Smart Collecting
1) Read and Learn.
The rules of satisfying collecting are perhaps everywhere the same. They begin with identifying your interest and – before collecting any firearms – collecting information, building a storehouse of knowledge.
If you are enticed into the field by the romance of the American Frontier era and enjoy looking at old Colt firearms, your fi rst purchase might be Doc O’Meara’s book on the Colt SAA.2 O’Meara’s book will both inspire you to collect and alert you to some of the nuances of the field, Bisleys to Buntlines.
The more you read and learn, the easier it will be to narrow your interest and objective when you get that itch to write out a check. And the more secure you will feel when you return home without that sulkingly familiar “buyer’s remorse.” Every bookstore has an outdoor section that contains a sample of gun books, but the best references for these invaluable collector’s aids can be found online with a minimum of searching.
2) Find People with Similar Interests.
A second rule of good collecting is to affi liate with others and learn from them…or allow them to learn from you. While any group can exhibit a “flock mentality” and carry you over the edge to a disastrous purchase (the lemming mentality of group-think), there is strength in numbers. Within a group, the new collector can find a mentor and can, in turn, become a mentor. There are quite a few gun-collecting associations and we provide a brief listing of national groups in an Appendix at the end of this book.
3) Attend Gun Shows.
At an early stage, it is a wonderful use of your time to visit local gun shows. Unless they are so designated, local shows will not have many antique firearms, although many curio and relic (C&R) guns and a ton of reproductions will be on view and on sale.
Gun shows are a great place to make contacts, to pick up business cards of men and women who may take time with a newcomer, to learn about organizations that provide contacts and information. They are not necessarily good places to make a purchase for a collection, however, because there is simply not time – and there are rarely facilities – to study and to thoroughly examine a gun. For that, one needs reference books, a good magnifying glass, good light and some peace and quiet, time without interruption to look and think; time to just sit and stare at the gun….
4) Avoid Impulse Buys.
The fourth rule of good collecting is to avoid the rush to make a purchase. Everyone is, on occasion, struck with the craving to buy now, as in “right now.” It is a strain of impatience that runs deep in the male species, men generally possessing the pro-buying, anti-shopping gene. Generally speaking, if something looks too good to be true, it probably is. Today, the field of American firearms holds many questions, but few surprises.
Still, every serious gun collector has a story about making an impulse decision to buy a firearm without thoroughly examining it or questioning its owner. It happens when one is distracted and can happen to an expert as well as a newbie. The field is littered – some say heavily – with altered and even downright faked firearms, and so when the impulse rises to make a snap decision that will cost hundreds or perhaps thousands of dollars, your best course of action is to walk away. Ninety-nine percent of the time this will be the correct long-term decision.
5) Make a Test Purchase.
While avoiding the impulse buy, it ultimately becomes important to buy…something. As a youngster I wanted a telescope to look at the moon and stars. My father insisted that I read about telescopes first, learn the principles by which the mirrors worked and then once I knew what I was talking about, he said, we would buy a great telescope.
|This article is an excerpt from the Gun Digest Book of Firearms Fakes & Reproductions. To learn more Click Here.|
Learning somewhat in a vacuum with only pictures and nothing to actually handle, manipulate, enjoy, I found words about objectives lenses and diopters and image stabilization to be terribly frustrating.
I never got a telescope and eventually lost interest. I did not want an expensive motor-driven refracting telescope anyway…just something to play around with. The recollection of that experience, and others since then, have led me to believe that nothing quite beats handling the real thing to stimulate interest.
You must have something to “play around with.” Only by investing in more than moving our eyes and perhaps our brain, only by making a real purchase can we extend the learning and enjoying experience. Perhaps it is a version of the “build it and they will come” philosophy. Your fi rst purchase does not have to be expensive; it probably should not be expensive, in fact, but it has to excite you. Stimulate you to want to learn more, see more and, yes, possess more. (Hint: For your first purchase, buy down in desirability, but up in quality or grade.)
6) Build Relationships.
Finally, when one has read and looked at pictures as much as one can stand, when one has narrowed one’s interest and visited gun shows and even made an initial “test purchase,” it is time to establish a relationship with a seller. One of the best ways to avoid being stuck with a turkey is to know the person who is selling to you; know where they will be two weeks after your check has cleared. By developing a long term relationship with a seller – whether it is an auction house or a private gun trader, 3 one begins to develop trust. A serious caution is in order here, however.
Even though you may be collecting for fun, money is changing hands and that makes some aspect of collecting a business. If it isn’t a business for you, it almost certainly will be for the person who is selling to you and in a business relationship you must, in the words of Ronald Regan, “Trust, but verify.”
The first time your new best friend approaches with a Confederate Colt, show your interest and ask for the paperwork, the provenance, and for any independent evaluations that might be reasonable. If the seller is legitimate and the product is legitimate as well, your questions and requests for independent authentication will not be offensive. If you are afraid to speak up, you lose.